(no subject)

[meorae]

I've been thinking a lot lately about the current education system and whether it's actually decent or not. I mean I see how it teaches us the basics of many different subjects which we can build off of later if we're interested. It also means that even if I feel like I'm smarter than a lot of people, they can still understand me if I'm talking about physics and I can understand them when they talk about Willy Loman or whatever. In addition, I've noticed how much easier it is to relearn something. So although I only remember one or two facts about bacteria, it's coming back pretty quickly, even after just one class about them. Also, I see how we learn how to follow directions, and how to get things done within a time constraint (even if that's not done effectively). And we learn how to interact with other people, even if we hate their guts and really want to kill them. We see how other people interact and all the different people there are in the world, or at least in our age group and in our town. But I wonder if these lessons and the basics need to be learned over the course of 12 years.

Which leads me to thinking about what the actual purpose of education is. Is it to teach people to work hard and conform into what the person in charge wants as butterofdolphin seems to think? Is it to create the vast number of workers needed to fuel our economy as acern mentioned on napoleonofnerds's post at the beginning of this year? Is it to keep kids out of the way until they can be useful for something as Paul Graham wrote in one of his essays? Or is it to actually provide people with knowledge? Or is it a combination of those? 'Cause it doesn't seem to make people learn very well for the exact reasons arsinyk wrote about a month ago. And I object intellectually to the idea that we're learning how to follow orders as that's what we'll have to do in life. Yes we do have to listen to the government and unless we start our own company or whatever, we'll have to listen to our boss. But I see that as more of an informed consent thing where we can see the benefits of listening to them (not only keeping our job and not being thrown in jail, but also seeing how the work we do by following their instructions affects the rest of society), while I feel like school is more of a listen to me because it will be important later in life, but I won't tell you how it benefits you. And as arsinyk said, there are more important lessons to be teaching kids than to listen to authority.

From my experience in school, it seems like the teachers all think the purpose of education is to get their students to learn about whatever subject the class is about. While, I think many students are just trying to get through high school, as they question the purpose of it, but are bombarded on every side by people saying "this is important, you need to get good grades, etc." But it seems worthless. I mean I go to school, getting drained of my energy and annoyed at how little we learn, hang out with the caf crew after school, come home and do homework, and then spend the rest of the night doing basically nothing on the computer because I'm too drained and don't want to do any learning or researching more than reading an interesting article or looking up a word in the dictionary. And then I go to sleep and it repeats again.

And I feel like I'm at a doorway and I can step through it and be free from restrictions, so I can stop listening to teachers and do my own thing, or I can close the door and listen to teachers, do my work and move throughout life in this little room of following directions. And I guess I could combine the two and do what Paul Graham suggests and treat school like a day job, learning things on my own outside of school, but I feel like I can't do both with my current motivation levels. And I guess I feel like the government and teachers know more than me and have experienced more, and they have faith in the system, so I should too... But I dunno. I guess I'm just confused right now.

If this is what education is, I'm not sure I want to continue with it. And if this is what life is, I'm tempted to go live on an island by myself.

And on a completely different note, although connecting to my island comment, last night's Lost was amazing. And I'm tempted to stay up late to watch it again on ABC's website as they now have complete episodes you can watch online for free, although with advertisements.

Comments

[side-tracked.livejournal.com]

I definitely see what you're saying, like getting good grades not to understand but to please, etc. which isn't what education is about. I don't really see it as an institution for workers or cronies or something. It's kindaof late and I'm a bit brain dead so this isn't going anywhere. Anyway...I definitely think that we should have more leeway in class choices because I'd much rather learn about things I like and that's a change that could be made. I'll post something more coherent when I'm more awake...

[arsinyk.livejournal.com]

My mother's (recent) response to butterofdolphin's arguments was that the things he was saying often aren't *true*, especially right now in America and going forward. She said it better than I can, but in her experience the person in charge often wants people who can take initiative, think for themselves, and if the boss is wrong stop it and tell them. Routine jobs where you just sit there and follow orders are increasingly being outsourced to other countries where people don't need to be paid as much. Right now, she's doing a job that didn't exist when she was in school. So are a lot of people, and odds are that most kids today will end up in jobs that don't exist yet. So she thinks the best way to prepare kids for that is to teach them how to know themselves and their skills well enough to find a place for themselves in the world, even as the world itself changes. And I get the impression that the school system agrees with her on that and is trying to implement it. The only problem is that it goes so fundamentally against everything the school system is/does right now that they can't do a good job.

Not sure I said that very well, but it's something else to think about.

[meorae.livejournal.com]

I think you said that well. And that's the thing. I hear you and others talking about this sortof thing and I'm more tempted to agree with you (and your mom). But then I'm friends with a million people who seem to think that school is everything and they have to get good grades and they have to do each and every single assignment that a teacher gives them. And then there's Carol, who's just Carol. But I don't really know what to think. And yet I like hearing other people's opinions and putting to paper (or computer...) my recent thoughts.

Are you available this weekend? Cause Carol and I might want to get together to watch DPS. I know you have the Pops concert, so should we just plan for after school next week or next weekend?

[arsinyk.livejournal.com]

Thanks.

Out of curiousity, the people who think that school is everything are all *in* school, right? Do you know people who've graduated who still think that school is/was the best thing for them/kids/people?

XD Yes, Carol is just Carol. There is no more to say.

(Think what I think! XP)

I find that talking/writing about my ideas helps me figure out what they are in an interesting way. I'll sit down to write something with a vague idea of what I'm going to say and by the end I've generated a million new ideas about the topic. And yes, that was random.


Well, next weekend (and Thursday and Friday) I'm going to be in DC. But except for Pops I'm free, so this weekend works for me. Just not during the concert. =P

[meorae.livejournal.com]

Ya. Don't know enough graduates or adults for there to be any who think that. My parents just seem to think that high school is a necessary evil and that my brother and I should try our best, so we can have a decent life afterwards.

Ya, just like Paul Graham's essay about essays. How that's what essays should be. Starting with a vague idea and actually learning from the essay.

Right, forgot about that. Ok, cool. I'm not free tomorrow. And Carol has aikido in the morning sometime on both Saturday and Sunday, which sortof leaves after pops on Sunday. Or after school Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday. The AHS website says that the concert is from 2-6 on Sunday. Is that actually correct? As it's only 2 hours long on Saturday.

[arsinyk.livejournal.com]

I have no more idea about Pops times than you. All Hem'll tell us is that she wants us there at 7:50 tomorrow.

I'm probably going to be busy during the week this week, so this weekend would be best.

[acern.livejournal.com]

_Just Carol_, huh? XD What's that supposed to mean?

I love your icon, Katherine. <3

...And I forgot to say, in my other post, are you actually drained at night, Katherine? >> I haven't done my nightly homework for most of the year, and I've just sort of been breezing by on what I've learned in class. The only thing I really do outside of school is my papers and stuff. The major things, you know. If you're really exhausted, that might call more for more sleep than less work, or something. Or maybe I'm just weird. "Just Carol," as you put it. X3

[meorae.livejournal.com]

I'm not drained so much as unmotivated, I guess. I don't want to clean my room or do that huge project that's due in two days or read books or watch movies or anything else that I don't mind doing or actually like doing when it's the summer. So I'm drained of my motivation and not so much my energy.

Another thing I've noticed, is whenever I leave the high school, I feel like a huge weight has been taken off my shoulders and that's certainly not a good sign...

And the thing is, I get 10 hours of sleep each night and the only time when I get less than that (ignoring last night when I was just being stupid) is when I have a lot of work. So the amount of work is connected to the amount of sleep.

Thank you Carol for your comments. They're things I've thought about, but couldn't really put into words. And seeing them written out makes me realize that that's basically what I feel. I've found that I can get myself to do things I end up enjoying, but I feel like the effort to get started is too much, so I end up not pushing myself to overcome my motivation problem. In the past few years I've just thought it was useless to put in the effort and I guess I'll try harder now...

[arsinyk.livejournal.com]

It means that you're so awesomely distinctive and unique and loved that all we need is your name and everyone knows what we mean. ^^

And as far as being drained, I know I'm just weird, but having left school it's so much easier to be not-nocturnal, it's *amazing*. I mean. I still stay up way to late, but I can actually be up during the day without feeling like crap.

But at least for me, it was as much being mentally and emotionally drained as physically. Just *being* there for 6 hrs a day seemed to sap away at me. Katherine said "whenever I leave the high school, I feel like a huge weight has been taken off my shoulders and that's certainly not a good sign", which sounds like the same thing I was feeling. Only the weight never completely lifted until I left school entirely (which I couldn't notice while I was in school, but was giddyingly obvious once I left), and I was still exhausted from having carried it around all day. I couldn't say why exactly I felt that, but it was real and depressing and exhausting and made so much harder to do anything interesting. And it went away almost instantly when I got out of school entirely, replaced with the need to *do* something. To talk to people, to see people, to create something, to write, to draw, to learn, to ponder, to take a walk, whatever. The point of this being ... I'm not sure. Just something to think about, I guess.

[tuescaudex.livejournal.com]

its very hard to keep every one on the same page, when people are on so many different chapters. i'm different and i know it. i like school, i liked ottoson, and i don't think the school system sucks.
my question to you, is lets say that you didn't have to go to school, and instead you worked (because we all know they wouldn't just let us do whatever). you work 8 yo 5, 9 to 5. come home finish the work that you didn't get to during the day, because face it it happens. and then you eat dinner, waste a few hours watching tv or on the computer, and go to sleep. it's not any better. you don't have any "extra" time for learning, so when are you going to learn?
and there is always a need to listen and follow directions. even if you start your own company and such you still have people to answer to and you're ideas aren't always wonderful. if we were destined to become robots to feed an over zealous capitalistic world, then why do we have these conversatations? isn't this part of our learning process, trying to figure how and why things work and how to make them better?
nothing is going to always be exciting and different, it will be monotonous. and this is just another stage of life

[meorae.livejournal.com]

I don't think the school system sucks, I just think it could be better. And right now I have no idea what the purpose of it is. I used to think that it was all about learning useful things for later life, but I don't see the use in much of what we learn, so I've gotten to the point where I stop looking for a reason we're learning this or that subject because I won't find one.

And I understand that later life will be much like it is now. But I'm sortof trying to accept that and also realize that I can still enjoy life and accomplish things without being completely free and having to live by this schedule that is the same day by day. But I hope that I'll either overcome my lack of motivation, or my motivation will come back once I'm out of high school, although the latter is unlikely.

I guess it is part of the learning process...

And I do know that. But I'm trying to accept that and accept that I do have a wonderful life even with the monotony. But I wonder if it could be better, and it probably could be.

[acern.livejournal.com]

Later life is gonna be worse, there'll be no summer break. :P

I think the best method might be to at least try to find a job you like, then have a very fulfilling outside life. You know... go master archery or fencing or something. Write doctoral dissertations on juggling. Whatever does it for you. Don't concentrate on your job (or school, in this case) as being your main purpose, or maybe... focus in life. 'Cause it doesn't have to be, if you don't like it. You can hold a job and still do things on the side, you know?

[arsinyk.livejournal.com]

At least when you're working you can *try* to find a job you enjoy.

[acern.livejournal.com]

Well, you can try and find a school you like, too. I mean, that's what you did- you were dissatisfied with your "job", so you quit and became independently employed. :P

[cbizkit.livejournal.com]

Recently I've been appreciating the idea that school can give you a little sound bite of something that's interesting and motivate you to learn more about it on your own. See Exhibit A: me and my buddy Aaron Burr.

And yeah, I think they mean well. It's not just a conspiracy to keep kids out of the way or package them for corporations. But it's not working very well in terms of actually teaching us useful information. *sigh* I hang on for those little bits of inspiration and so that I can get into a good college (not to get a good job, but because I want to have a good time at college, which actually allows you to LEARN STUFF. Which I enjoy doing. I sort of have a student's disposition, I guess.)

[meorae.livejournal.com]

Ya. Those are basically the exact opinions that I am realizing I hold. I certainly enjoy learning stuff. I'm just not sure college will be that much better, though.

[wirlia.livejournal.com]

I think you're looking at it very backwards. You said that you're on a threshold, and that if the door is open, that means going out of school, or at least learning your own thing, and that if it's closed that means you're going to school and being a drone. But that's not really it.

For me, school *is* the doorway, and by going through it I can then do what I'll like, because I'll have lots of money (ideally). Through school, I can actually *buy* the island. I mean, school wouldn't be my doorway if I were brilliant. But if I were Mozart or had just finished Thus Spake Zarathustra, school wouldn't be my doorway, but I'm not that smart and I don't know where my path is. My road probably won't lie in either composing or philosophy, and I don't know where my future is going to go.

And I really, really, really disagree about all the teachers just wanting their students to learn about what their class is about. Did you have Mr. Greco or did you ever meet him? Do you have Ms. Jewell? Ms. Tully? I really don't think that their goal is *just* to have you learn about their subjects, so that you really do understand helicase and ligase; I think their purpose is to truly enable you to become a better person and I think they really do care about your learning far beyond their narrow subjects.

But I think the real question about education lies somewhere with how school performance and socioeconomic status (SES) are related. And if a great education can change an entire generation's SES, would we want to provide that education? (yes, I *know* that's an awful, awful question and probably shouldn't even be considered, please don't flame me, I meant it as a purely hypothetical question)

[meorae.livejournal.com]

Ok, I can see that. But right now I'm unsure if life actually will get better and I'll actually have more freedom after going through school. And I feel like school isn't really showing me where my future will go because it's so detached from the real world. We do do some of the things we'll have to do in later life in school, which is the reason we can put the math expo on our resume, but I dunno.

I never had Greco or met him and I don't have Jewell. I do have Tully, and I think her goal is to get everyone to appreciate the field of biology or at least science. Maybe not just to learn about the subject, but all of my teachers seem to be trying to prepare us for the real world by just forcing information into our stupid little minds. They do seem to have our best interests in mind, but I've never had a teacher who actually tells me what abilities I'll need in real life.

I only know about resumes and what you put on them because of the number of times my dad has had to write up a new resume while searching for another job, and even then I don't have a clear grasp on that and will probably mess up horribly when I go to write my first one, although I guess that might come with experience. I only know about the use of a number of things, like having to work on multiple projects at the same time, because I complained to my father and he discussed it with me.

I think I'd appreciate school a lot more if I didn't have to look outside of school to figure out things that happen in school and things that I will need to have a firm grasp on to succeed in the real world. (I mean how hard is it to add a sentence or two to an assignment sheet describing how working hard is necessary in real life, and lots of times, one project will be put on hold, like an experiment or research or something, because an older project is being revisited after another person has looked at it.)

And the fact that teachers have to actively look for reasons their subject is important (maybe that's just with math teachers, but still, Ms. Brauner has said like twice this year something like 'ha, matrices are important because...' where it's obvious she's only just noticing this) just proves to me that education is way too detached from real life right now. And I guess that's my real problem.

That was not that coherent or whatever, and for that I'm sorry, but you understand me anyways. I hope...

[acern.livejournal.com]

As you say, "I've never had a teacher who actually tells me what abilities I'll need in real life". I think that that might be because they don't _know_. Real life is so _different_ for each person, even just job-wise; I think they're trying to give us a little bit of each subject, so that no matter what you choose to do, you'll be at least a little prepared. Like, Tully gave us those huge lists of scientific careers? I think that was so, if you enjoyed her class, you could see what you might need for some jobs. The problem is, I mean... Did you see how diverse the requirements were for those jobs? And that's just in the bioengineering field. To prepare us for the real world, they would have to cover _tons_ of different junk. They can't do that in the time they're given, so theye try to mention things that might help you out. Or, as, uh... Claire, I think it was, said, they're hoping that you'll get interested in something and go out and do it yourself. Research, yourself, what you need, since they can't possibly provide what _everyone_ needs to know for their possible future careers.

So, education's sorta detached from real life, but I think it's probably good to learn what we're learning, if only so that we can build on it later. I mean, back in third grade or whatever, you had to learn about the different, um... thingies. Groups. You know, mammals and birds and reptiles and amphibians and it was like "what bullshit is this? They're all animals, dammit, why split them into catagories when you've got half-way ones like platypi and dinosaurs and whatnot? It doesn't help at all, in real life- birds don't fly over to me if I yell 'bird!' at them." But can you imagine if you didn't know the difference, now, between an amphibian and a reptile, if someone asked? They'd think you were a gibbering idiot. (Okay, they'd think I was a gibbering idiot. They'd think you were a normal idiot.) So... I guess my point is that they're trying to give us what we might need, the likely-to-be-used bits, and what we don't, we'll put out of our minds and not need.